question

What modulates our Sun? The majority of science work on the principle that the Sun is self modulating and each solar cycle is a product of a random number generator. There are others that suspect the Sun is modulated by the planets with a special emphasis on Uranus & Neptune. Thanks to Carl Smith who has recently left us we have new knowledge that significantly adds to Jose, Landscheidt & Charvàtovà's work.

Geoff Sharp

JUpiter Saturn Perihelion

Posted Sat, 08/14/2010 - 05:19 by tfmiltz

Hello everyone.

 

I just joined.  I'm 42 - a programmer of oh 34 years - and I was reading about this 11 year orbital of Jupiter and the Solar cycles.

I was using a Java applet 2 years ago -  this is the current one I found -

http://jove.geol.niu.edu/faculty/stoddard/JAVA/luminaries.html

 

And I was just playing around looking for when all the planets would be on one side of the sun.   That day was July 17th approximately 2010. 

I got to thinking maybe there is something to this tidal pull of Jupiter as to causal factors to solar peak activity, and to find this is a popular view.

I have since updated my take on things to include this alternation I observe between Saturn and Jupiter - they are both on the same side of the sun, then the opposite, then the same-  and their orbits being eliptical ? I figured AH HA - maybe the peak solar cycle is really due to the times Jupiter and Saturn are on exact opposite sitdes (approxiamtely every 11 years, but varies I see from 9 to 13) and also on the same side.

I started to wonder also about star 'wobble' as is detected in exoplanet discovery- wondering if Jupiter can pull the sun towards the earth closer than usual, etc.  I thought surely MIT Haystack observatory or SOMEHWERE we'd know for sure the exact realtime distrance of the Sun to the Earth- to my surprise - no such measurement exists.

Anyway - I joined the forum here to ask if anyone has any insights on THIS idea:

 

Which I am wondering PERHAPS when Jupiter AND Saturn are BOTH at their perihelion-  the period when they are closest and moving the fastest-   that THIS would be the most influential period on the sun two fold- one, as to causing serious wobble (IF it's both happen to be on the same side of the Sun when both are at perihelion) -  OR causing the MOST stress - to which I'm not sure would be if on same side or opposite side during both in perihelion.

 

forgive my terminology- I'm no astronomer - but I REALLY think that the variation in the solar cycle is resultant from a COMBINATION of Jupiter and Saturn primarily - POSSIBLY bring in Uranus - or Neptune - actually- you'd think it would be collective of ALL mass around the sun in orbit- but I think Jupiter and Saturn seem to be the monsters here.

I've never felt so sure of something in my life- but I'm wondering if anyone here knows WHEN Jupiter and Saturn will be at the same time- in their CLOSEST position to the sun in orbit - I think thisis called perihelion - and also - how OFTEN that happens- and also - does it happen such that BOTH are on the SAME side - always ? or does it alternate (talking ONLY in perihelion in this case for both).

I also wonder if anyone knows where to find precise orbital models for Saturna and Jupiter, I'm willing to explore some new mathematics experiences for myself here - as I really want to find out if these two are the prime causal factors to solar cycles.  

I am convinced this heat we have now - record temps all over the globe are resultant from this July 17th time when I can see from the java applet showing position of the planets- all the planets were on one side of the sun - except THIS cycle, I see Jupiter and Saturn are on opposite sides. 

 

I see Jupiter will be behind Eart on September 20th, 2010,  and I wonder if Jupiter's pull on the Sun will pull the Sun CLOSER to the Earth, Earth entering IT'S perihelion ? I would think that's a SERIOUS shorter distance than normal from the Earth to the Sun, and am wondering if this could mean even hotter temps in mid to late September.

 

Oh well- I've been unemployed for nearly a year now - and have had plenty of time to think about this stuff- but I really intuit there is something to Saturn and Jupiter's posiiton - due to their discreet differences in elliptical orbit ? that are responsible for solar activity- such that their elliptical orbit determines maximum and minimum influence on the Sun, such that I can only guess when BOTH those two giants are at their perihelion - SAME SIDE ? I'd think that would cause some SERIOUS pull on the Sun, the day the Earth would be in line with those two ? When they are in perihelion ? I'd think it would be the hottest possible time on Earth.

Hope I didn't bore or bother anyone here - this is all just layman study for me- but I do have a passion to explore this - mainly because I think weather on Earth is still somehow - Pre-Copernicun - it's as if I never ever ever see the Sun mentioned in any weather reports- when I've been watching SOHO for years now - almost daily- and I can see when the Sun shows signs of stress- such as today - that big bright area on the EIT 285 on the left- I expect all of next week should be just killer temps on Earth - all makes sense to me - I could be off my rocker,I don't think so though.

If anyone happens to know when Jupiter and Saturn would be in their perihelion - i'd LOVE to know - I don't yet know how to compute this - I read Keppler may have stolen Brahe's detailed orbital positions- heh - doesn't matter to me - I just want to find out - because THAT DAY when they are ? I'd think the Sun would be something to watch out for - as to stress related activity.

 

Oh well- sorry if I went on- I don't get out much- as in - short of grocery store- not at all !

I hope to be able to learn new things here - and maybe contribute to further these questions and answers.

Tim Miltz

 

 

 

‹ Censorship. Is Jupiter a Sun in process ›

Comments

Jupiter Saturn opposite sides

by tfmiltz - 08/14/2010 - 05:34

Oh, I forgot to mention

I noticed using this applet:

http://jove.geol.niu.edu/faculty/stoddard/JAVA/luminaries.html

That in April 2011,  it looks to me this is when Jupiter and Saturn will truly be on opposite sides- this year it was close- but looks like next year they will be opposite (I see this pattern flip over and over and over)...

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to THIS would be the TRUE peak solar activity.

I think I recall NASA saying peak solar activity won't be until 2013 -  but seems to me April 2010 would be the ultimate stress as the Sun is pulled by BOTH - Saturn and Jupiter.

I'd MOSTLY like to find the most accurate model for Saturn and Jupiter and I think I'm repeating myself.

Well- that's my first and second post - I'll see if anyone happens by them - and has any thoughts on this - I anticipate others also have this theory about Saturn and Jupiter- I was googling it and I found this :

http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.5009

 

Written by one: P.A. Semi- who really seems to understand this a whole lot better, and seems to be better prepared academically to pursue this - I ended up at this site through P.A. Semi - to that I am grateful to gain opportunity to explore this idea with those that pursue it with greater - hmm - accuracy - but probably equal passion :)

The most IMPORTANT thing I've realized lately is just how big of a role the Sun plays in Earth weather - and ironically ? How important a role I THINK Gas giants Jupiter and Saturn play also in affecting the Sun.

It is odd, that Jupiter and Saturn have a greater effect perhaps on the Sun than they do on the Earth.

It's all so very interesting to me.

I think what P. A.  Semi is onto here would be a breakthrough in understanding causality in solar events - peaks in events etc, without question valuable to all agriculture on the planet - and probably knowing when to prepare for storing extra foods for those peak periods when crops might be wiped out - take Pakistan right now - I am convinced the Earth is closer to the Sun right now - I mean, all the planets on July 17th were all on one side of the Sun, how could they not all pull the Earth ? we have to be closer - alas hotter until sometime next year I imagine. 

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

Jupiter & Saturn

by Geoff Sharp - 08/14/2010 - 08:25

Thanks Tim for your comments, but unfortunately most of it is not correct. The perihelion of Jupiter & Saturn has little affect and at present they are 90 deg off each other. Earth's orbit only varies by it elliptical shape and is not greatly affected by short term perturbations from the gas giants.

The focus is on the Sun right now, and how its orbit around the SSB is changed along with its velocity which is a result of the planet positions.

The sun indeed

by tfmiltz - 08/22/2010 - 19:53

Geoff -

 

I must not have communicated clearly- I meant to put focus ON the sun regarding Jupiter and Saturn.

 

It seems when these two are on opposite sides, and then same side- it seems THAT pattern matches with solar peak activity.

 

Saturn and JUpiter's orbit both being elliptical, I would think as Saturn approaches it's perihelion - AND Jupiter approaches IT's perihelion, both would have greater velocity, and more pull on the sun - I note this will happen in 2060 AD.  In 2020 I observe we'll face Jupiter and Saturn on he same side, but neither of those two will be at their perihelion.  

 

ALL of my comments were to the Sun - I don't recall mentioning tectonic plates affecting the Earth, I've considered that but I'm afraid you drew that conclusion.

I still think I'm right though, that Saturn and Jupiter are the prime factors behind the stress on the Sun that brings us the conveyor belt, aka Solar cycles, and I STILL think It's to do with Jupiter alternating being in opposition and then same side.   I also think when Jupiter and Saturn when BOTH on the same side and BOTH in perihelion this would be the greatest stress on the Sun, which should happen in 2060 AD.

Next time they match up is 2020,  but almost to the DAY - when all the planets were on one side - and Jupiter and Saturn were in near oppositin this year we had the most active Sun I've seen from SOHO EIT 285.

I ALSO disagree- Jupiter and Saturn are NOT in perfect 90% opposition right now, looks to me like this won't be until April 2011.  Maybe late March, I eye balled it though !

Tim Miltz

thoughts welcome.   I've been looking for more accurate orbital data FOR Jupiter and Saturn- Geoff if you happen to know where one can find that - I'd be grateful.

I read Tycho may have stolen it from Brahe - but I'm sure by now we have much better data ?

 

REPLY: Hi Tim, yes Jupiter and Saturn are around 180 deg apart right now, I was meaning that their perihelion positions are about 90 deg apart. The slight change in their orbit shape does affect planet velocity but the overall effect on the Sun is minuscule compared to the extra forces coming from Uranus and Neptune right now. All 4 planets have to be in the right position, but it is that position that changes the solar path around the SSB and not changes to planet velocities.

Also keep in mind the Earth orbits the Sun and moves with the Sun instantly, they are locked together. The only variance being the slightly elliptical orbit of Earth.

I use this link for planet poistions http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbi...

Many thanks go to Carl's brother Dave for providing the Domain, Server and Software.